Discussion

[BladeSabre]

It can't be "MMORPG" until it's got a lot of players. And there's no acronym for it if you remove the "massively".

One author used "PIG" for such a thing - "persistent interactive game", but it's not caught on yet ;P

[matlu]

MUD, or multi user dimension, usually refers to a text-based game...  Graphiced ones take the name "mmorpg",

I don't mind to use word "MUD" also for graphical game, but it's just a matter of taste I also prefer explanation "multi user dungeon". I played several such text-based muds.

That aside, I hate runescape's graphics.  A lot.  That was the last straw before I quit.  No, I strongly suggest to steer clear of Runescape style graphics.  They stink.  It would prolly be easier (and better) to make it sprited.  Like Tibia!  It loses nothing from it's spritednes..es...Whatever

I'm afraid that your opinion matters a lot. Whether you like it or not, you are my best artist The problem is that I'm almost 100% decided to make it 3d and I already spent much effort on it. Can you explain what is wrong on runescape-like graphics?
Tibia is sure great game.. but there are probably too many such games (I know one called Wyvern, but there are sure tens others existing, or in development)
Also, I want the game to be browser based. Tibia's installation file is 6mb, which is too much for online game. They managed to get runescape under 1mb. They have less graphics, just few textures for 3d objects and some 2d art for items and sprites

If you are going to do 3-D, at least don't do it like run-escape.

Any idea? It would be great if you could come up with something, but I don't see too many options, the possibilities are quite limited in browser based game

[T3h luggage]

Heh, I'm just a spriter.  I hate to admit it, but spriting is one of the most basic forms of graphics.('cept Nethack origional.  your character is an asterick.  That game is awesome) I'm not qualified to workl in 3-D.  But really, runescape is bugly, but some people don't notice.  I'm just sensitive to shading and stuff.  The sprites they do have ingame are just...hidious.  *shudder*  You prolly won't have that problem, though, so do whatever.
And yes, there are like a jillion tibia rip-offs and tributaries.

[matlu]

not sure if it is good approach, but I would feel a bit better to make a first rip-off of RS, than million-first rip-off of Tibia (or whatever such game existed first).

But really, runescape is bugly, but some people don't notice.  I'm just sensitive to shading and stuff

Not sure what exactly do you mean. The 3d engine is 100% software based, without any hardware acceleration, and when you want to make it fast this way you have to sacrifice quality. If you mean that sprites itself are poorly drawn, then someone can hopefully make better for my game.
That game is not meant to look great (although they are trying to get it as good as possible), to provide "instant" pseudo-rpg-like game playable from browser, without need to download and install it. And this is also my goal.

BTW I still naively hope that I'll convince you somehow to make some sprites for it

Anyway, it has time. I have to work on the engine first.

[T3h luggage]

Indeed, it does have time.  And Yes, I'll do some sprites for it as well as this.  I don't have time to do the intensive work a sprite-based game would take anyway, as I'm working on one myself.  Kinda.  Sorta.

[matlu]

Indeed, it does have time.  And Yes, I'll do some sprites for it as well as this.  I don't have time to do the intensive work a sprite-based game would take anyway, as I'm working on one myself.  Kinda.  Sorta.

if it has some webpage show it to us

[T3h luggage]

I mean "I started 2 weeks ago" kinda sorta, not "I got a demo" kinda sorta if you know what I mean.  I just got a few sprites and a rough list of monsters and equipment.

[BladeSabre]

Can you explain what is wrong on runescape-like graphics?
...
The 3d engine is 100% software based, without any hardware acceleration, and when you want to make it fast this way you have to sacrifice quality.
...
They managed to get runescape under 1mb. They have less graphics, just few textures for 3d objects and some 2d art for items and sprites

I think you might have answered your own question .

[TheMcCool]

Yes, runescape graphics made me puke... But it was the dull and unexciting gameplay, and poorly designed competitive play that made me quit it. I played it in the beginning when it first came out, and played for perhaps a year and a half or so. But the only reason I played that long was because it was jagex, and alot of GD Castle users went to it.

I think it's probably possible to design more appealing graphics using the same 3d engine though, so go for it guys.
A suggestion... Give it a good chat system. One where you don't need to worry about how long your message is, and the  ability to scroll up and down... and whatever else you can think of. Crappy chat interfaces always annoy me in online games, let alone a supposed rpg.

[BladeSabre]

Yes, runescape graphics made me puke... But it was the dull and unexciting gameplay, and poorly designed competitive play that made me quit it.

A suggestion... Give it a good chat system. One where you don't need to worry about how long your message is, and the  ability to scroll up and down... and whatever else you can think of. Crappy chat interfaces always annoy me in online games, let alone a supposed rpg.

I agree totally with that. (Except that I haven't quite quit yet...)

[Parsley]

A good RPG is:
- too complicated for any one person to understand
- easy to start, infinitely difficult to master
- timeless in its representation (clarity, rather than simplicity)
- endless in possible permutations
- impossible to become the 'highest' level
- & lots of passive gameplay options so that girls can enjoy themselves

I would suggest looking at these for hints & tips:
http://www.bat.org/help/help.php
http://www.bat.org/help/skillspell.php

[matlu]

- & lots of passive gameplay options so that girls can enjoy themselves

lol, very true


You are very right. I will try to stick to old text-based concepts, just to enhance them with 3d graphics.
It will be probably posible to find few concepts, which RS lacks.
What I personally don't like, is that items are very 'static'. Each item has just 1. picture, 2. text description 3. some simple (static) stats in case it's a weapon. That's quite a difference to what was possible in text-based muds, for example I remember a sword which used to talk me, or which could be "charged" with energy etc.

[BladeSabre]

too complicated for any one person to understand

That's rather hard if one person is writing it.

lots of passive gameplay options so that girls can enjoy themselves

What I like best is killing people in an environment that requires strategy...

impossible to become the 'highest' level

What do you mean by that?

[Parsley]

Is it possible, do you think, to link the MUD and java interface?  Perhaps through a telnet relay?

That is, you have dual servers - one running telnet (the host client), which accepts commands, and publishes text replies.  The second is the java client, which is instructed indirectly from what people enter into the telnet client.

So effectively you'd be playing a text based MUD, and the graphics would simply be a representation of what's going on, rather than the entire game itself.

That way you could have as complex a formula as you like for the game itself, but when it represents itself graphically it follows the restraints you mentioned?

Or is that just making things far too complicated?

-  - - - ----  --
Blade:

Usually more than one person codes an RPG.  Last one I helped with had about 60-70 part timers helping out.

What different people enjoy doesn't matter - the fact is that women play computer games 2x as much as men, but they tend to stick to games of a passive nature where there is cumulative reward, rather than a risk/reward system - that is, something like cyberpets or the Sims, where they can build, nurture and grow - rather than Doom where it's kill or be killed.

Impossible to become the 'highest' level means just that - people keep playing so long as there's a goal to attain;  if people can max-out they lose interest.

Phew. Long post.

[matlu]

That is, you have dual servers - one running telnet (the host client), which accepts commands, and publishes text replies.  The second is the java client, which is instructed indirectly from what people enter into the telnet client.

So effectively you'd be playing a text based MUD, and the graphics would simply be a representation of what's going on, rather than the entire game itself.

That way you could have as complex a formula as you like for the game itself, but when it represents itself graphically it follows the restraints you mentioned?

I'm afraid it has several weaknesses.
- It would be only accepted by hard-core old-fashioned MUD players. I guess that such people already have their favourite MUD, and they would not switch. I'm afraid that such people are not being born anymore    Most "modern" people simply refuse to type, or to learn text commands. It's same problem as MS-DOS vs. Windows, or better  unix-shell-console vs. Windows or X-Windows. Console is mostly far superior, but most people refuse to use it.

- I'm not realy sure how could this "automatic conversion to graphics" work. It would be hard to get it in tune. People would ask: why do I have to type "north", I want just click some place. Also, typical mud movement commands would not work with 3d graphics. I don't know, maybe it just needs some deeper thinking.
I will think about it, but right now it doesn't seem a very good idea. Hm, it would require sa graphical representation of each room (I mean room in text-based mud terms) - and it would start to strongly resemble Adventure games (especially those old from Sierra, where you could both type and use mouse).

Probably there will be some text window, where you still can type commands (as it is done in 2d muds which Teh_Luggage mentioned), but majority of interaction will be done through mouse and graphics.