Duel Board - Free multiplayer online games

To be honest, I really don't know what to do with combat system. It is problematic, and very hard to get it balanced.  I know that some people have problem to understand it, and ask questions like: "how could commander kill my mech", or "why is predator so easy to kill".

#1
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The current formula to compute combat result is:
IF (str + 1d6) >= (def + 1d7) THEN kill

It means:
1. strength of attacking monster is increased by random number in range (1..6)
2. defence of defending monster is increased by random number in range (1..7)
3. if "attack" number is higher or equal than "defending" number, the monster is killed

This formula leads to following probabilities:
Diff - is difference between strength and defence (It is strength MINUS defence)
Prob - is probability to kill

Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 2.3%
Diff: -4     Prob: 7.0%
Diff: -3     Prob: 14.3%
Diff: -2     Prob: 23.8%
Diff: -1     Prob: 35.8%
Diff: 0     Prob: 50.0%
Diff: 1     Prob: 64.3%
Diff: 2     Prob: 76.1%
Diff: 3     Prob: 85.6%
Diff: 4     Prob: 92.8%
Diff: 5     Prob: 97.5%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

For example, commander (str 5) vs. predator (def 7).  5 - 7 = -2, so there is 23.8% probability, that commander kills a predator.

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That's how it works. I hope it's ok. If it was changed to:

#2
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IF (str + 1d5) >= (def + 1d6) THEN kill

The proabilities are following:

Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -4     Prob: 3.3%
Diff: -3     Prob: 10.0%
Diff: -2     Prob: 19.9%
Diff: -1     Prob: 33.3%
Diff: 0     Prob: 50.0%
Diff: 1     Prob: 66.7%
Diff: 2     Prob: 80.0%
Diff: 3     Prob: 90.0%
Diff: 4     Prob: 96.6%
Diff: 5     Prob: 100.0%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

I think that first version is better. Just my opinion.

I like first eqaution more.

In theory everything should have the probability to kill everything else. This is where I think the formula that was suggested by zz would be the best one to use.
Could you explain why you choose not to use that formula?
(The topic is:)
http://www.duelboard.com/forum/index.php/topic,161.0.html

Thanks

Ok. How do you like following combat system?

#3
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Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -4     Prob: 2.7%
Diff: -3     Prob: 8.3%
Diff: -2     Prob: 16.5%
Diff: -1     Prob: 27.8%
Diff: 0     Prob: 41.7%
Diff: 1     Prob: 58.2%
Diff: 2     Prob: 72.2%
Diff: 3     Prob: 83.2%
Diff: 4     Prob: 91.6%
Diff: 5     Prob: 97.2%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

Note, that it's NOT symetric, and there is NOT 50% probability for equal strength and defence (it is 41.7%). I don't think it's a problem.

On the other hand, it solves many problem (there is pathetic 2.7% probability, that your commander gets killed by probe)

P.S. I'm not 100% sure, but it's quite likely that exactly same system was used in cyberwars

Do you have to have a formula for this thing? If so, why?

Quote from: Bakster on June 08, 2005, 02:16:21 PM
Do you have to have a formula for this thing? If so, why?

Now, there doesn't have to be a formula. Probablity values can also be listed in a table. Formula is just more convenient. Anyway, the probles is, what values should be in the table.

the 3rd equation might solve alot of problems......but i don't know why don't you make a poll out of it and people vote

Quote from: raikoukami on June 08, 2005, 08:46:15 PM
the 3rd equation might solve alot of problems......but i don't know why don't you make a poll out of it and people vote

yes it looks good... I'm only afraid, that probability to kill a commander in force armour (by another commander) will drop from 14% to 8%. Almost to one half. Force armour will be really very strong

I like the theory that everything should be able to kill everything, all the way to drone being able to withstand or kill a battlemech.  That first formula was closest, all the others so far seem to be limiting how far something can kill.  I'm not saying I want a drone to have a 10% chance of killing a BM by any means, but the possibilty should be there (1% or even less).  I haven't seen ZZ's idea yet, mainly because that link everyone keeps showing is broken, but it sounds good.  If no one wants that though, I'm thinking that #1 idea you had up there is good enough.

#1 was used for several weeks, but it did not prove very good. For example there was 14% probability that monster with strength 2 kills a commander (with defence 5).

After famuos "Bakster spam" it was changed to #2. That's what is used RIGHT NOW. I believe it's better than #1 (although it's quite similar)

I don't think that's it's perfect, but it's VERY hard to find a balance. I'm always trying to consider, what is probability to kill a commander in force armour, and other "real-life" examples.

Not that I am trying to make your life any harder matlu, but in Cyber Wars, I distinctly remember killing a commander that had force armor(8 def) with a probe(1 str).  Therefore making the difference -7.  Now I only have done that once.  Being that I have played several THOUSAND games and this is the only time it has happened to me, this means the probability is extremely low, however it was possible.

As of right now, I am fairly happy with the current combat system.  However, I feel that having a 100% or 0% chance of one monster killing another is not right. There should be a very, VERY, small chance that anything can destroy anything.  Even if it is a 0.09 % probability

I like #2 and #3 more than #1. I prefer to win because I actually played better, not because someone had really bad luck, as funny as that can be.

To me there are two solutions to the problem:

1.  Players, especially new players who did not play the original Cyber Wars, are under the assumption that having a monster with strength higher than the defense of the monster it is attacking will always kill it.  They do not seem to understand that some of this game is left up to chance, and that sometimes even the best of us will take a bad beat.  The solution to this is just to try and educate new players about the rules and ideas behind the game.  Maybe by creating an online manual or tutorial on the game rules.

2.  Instead of trying to teach new players, you can just decrease the odds a low level monster defeating a higher level monster.  It seems to me that most people get upset when a monster with a level difference of -3 or more kills another monster.  So I suggest the odds on a -3 difference or higher should be a lower percent.

QuoteSo I suggest the odds on a -3 difference or higher should be a lower percent

I'm very concerned about force armour, it would become too strong I think :( It's not so hard to get force armour, but it's harder to get something that's able to defeat it. I really don't know :(

Perhaps there could be an item which destroys upgrades?

I don't like the Diff 1 and Diff -1.

Diff -1 33.3%
Diff 0 50%
Diff 1 66.6%

??

yea,  that sounds good.  I love the 2nd turn eye kill :P

Me too ;D

Even better if the eye is a holo :P

I'm really starting to get upset with the randomness in this game.  A PROBE should NEVER kill a commander!!  I just hit someone with a pred and a sabre and he survived..  then killed me.  Thats insane.  I think you should change the chances to this as soon as possible:

Diff: -6     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -5     Prob: 0.0%
Diff: -4     Prob: 2.7%
Diff: -3     Prob: 8.3%
Diff: -2     Prob: 16.5%
Diff: -1     Prob: 33.3%
Diff: 0     Prob: 50.0%
Diff: 1     Prob: 66.7%
Diff: 2     Prob: 83.5%
Diff: 3     Prob: 91.7%
Diff: 4     Prob: 97.3%
Diff: 5     Prob: 100.0%
Diff: 6     Prob: 100.0%

What do you think of those percents?

it allows probe to kill a commander (2.7%) while you said that it should never be possible

I noticed that too, but I thought it would be weird to jump down to 0% there.  Really a probe shouldn't kill a commander..  but I would like for a hovertank to take out a battle mech sometimes. Thats why I left it at 2.7% 

How open are you to changing the combat system anyway?

very open, in fact it already changed many times :)

which one are you currently useing?  and is there a chance you'll use mine?

Quote from: zozefup on June 22, 2005, 10:35:56 AM
which one are you currently useing?  and is there a chance you'll use mine?

Currently used is #2 (mentioned in the first post of this thread), and I'm afraid that's it's practically same thing as you suggested, the differences are very little and I don't think it's worth to change it (also current system is based on a simple formula while your system is based on "empiric" table and it would require some effort to rework it)

I read that, but Sir_Gut (I think) told me you were using the 3rd one now.  Your right, my system is close to what your using.

BUMP.

(To help a new player)

Why don't we just make this a sticky?

Can we make a difference of -8 be 0.1% and so on so there's always that chance? Also, yeah, sticky this.

I like the current percents, please don't change it  :-*

It wouldn't be changing anything except the 0%s and the 100%s everything else would remain static. There should always be at worst a 0.01% chance of something killing something or something surviving something.

Nope, leave it.

I like the current setup of the battle system so far for two reasons.

1. To actually beam down any real versions of a high attacking monster is near impossible so the weak ones should get a medium chance if not a slim roll of luck to take out anything really high in defence

2. Having something like a prob kill a non equipted commander is always funny even when it happens to yourself.

My opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

Quote from: Karm5000 on October 17, 2006, 08:27:22 PM
I like the current setup of the battle system so far for two reasons.

1. To actually beam down any real versions of a high attacking monster is near impossible so the weak ones should get a medium chance if not a slim roll of luck to take out anything really high in defence

Weak monsters have no chance of killing the really strong ones.

Shows how much you know D  ;)

Why does it? I'm right.

If there is more than a difference of 4 between str and def then there is 0% chance that the monster will die.

besides the obvious math equations probes rock and u know it

What the hell?  ???